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Old Scratch needs to be nerfed.

2
AuthorMessage
Pirate Overlord
Mar 16, 2012
10123
I'm requesting that this post be locked as it no longer serves a constructive purpose and is degenerating into an argument.

Ensign
Mar 03, 2020
41
chiliman05 on Apr 2, 2020 wrote:
I don't know why you're bringing up mojo storms, as I have never mentioned that once. But mojo storms is affected by armor, I don't know why you think it wouldn't be.
because... there's another stat that defends against magic? mojo storms was a basic example,

also uh, no? in nearly every obsidian fight, the boss is the hard part.

duck can one shot the entire team with a super
scratch can 2-4 turn your team if you don't have forts or absorbs
brass and his minions do 2-4k damage per hit
blood with repel 5 rip5 and blade 5 can essentially 1v1 any melee unit and get all his health back.

the bosses are the hard parts of their fights?

also, these are farming bosses, as in we want to be able to finish it as fast as we can for maximum value, in which cheese is highly effective.

Don't like Scratch? just don't use him. boom

Gunner's Mate
Aug 10, 2011
289
anecorbie on Apr 3, 2020 wrote:
I'm requesting that this post be locked as it no longer serves a constructive purpose and is degenerating into an argument.
Well actually it is being constructive, we've come to the conclusion that the Witchdoctor class needs to be revamped, so progress has been made.

I suggest leaving it open, as it may indeed help the game. Arguing is necessary to see both sides of the opinion and find a middle ground.

Gunner's Mate
Aug 10, 2011
289
caleb10104 on Apr 3, 2020 wrote:
because... there's another stat that defends against magic? mojo storms was a basic example,

also uh, no? in nearly every obsidian fight, the boss is the hard part.

duck can one shot the entire team with a super
scratch can 2-4 turn your team if you don't have forts or absorbs
brass and his minions do 2-4k damage per hit
blood with repel 5 rip5 and blade 5 can essentially 1v1 any melee unit and get all his health back.

the bosses are the hard parts of their fights?

also, these are farming bosses, as in we want to be able to finish it as fast as we can for maximum value, in which cheese is highly effective.

Don't like Scratch? just don't use him. boom
The problem of Scratch is that he's too powerful. And I highly doubt you can convince every single player to not use Scratch. Until that day, some sort of nerf should be established to him. It's bad to have cheese in a game, as it ruins difficulty. Pirate101 is made to be a semi difficult game. So you can't have one companion that just is incredibly powerful. Once again, I feel as though the Witchdoctor class needs a revamp of some degree.

I'm not saying a complete overhaul (nice to get if we could), but just some small tweaks should put them on equal playing level.

Gunner's Mate
Aug 10, 2011
289
anecorbie on Apr 3, 2020 wrote:
I'm requesting that this post be locked as it no longer serves a constructive purpose and is degenerating into an argument.
Put is simply, you have argued in the past and no one asked for your posts to be shut down. A constructive argument is necessary (which is what is happening). So no, it is not "degenerating" as you stated.

I would agree with you strongly if it had gotten to the point where we were all throwing insults at each other. But for now, we are simply arguing on the opinions to find a middle ground.

No need to shut down progress, Anecorbie.

Gunner's Mate
Aug 10, 2011
289
caleb10104 on Apr 3, 2020 wrote:
because... there's another stat that defends against magic? mojo storms was a basic example,

also uh, no? in nearly every obsidian fight, the boss is the hard part.

duck can one shot the entire team with a super
scratch can 2-4 turn your team if you don't have forts or absorbs
brass and his minions do 2-4k damage per hit
blood with repel 5 rip5 and blade 5 can essentially 1v1 any melee unit and get all his health back.

the bosses are the hard parts of their fights?

also, these are farming bosses, as in we want to be able to finish it as fast as we can for maximum value, in which cheese is highly effective.

Don't like Scratch? just don't use him. boom
While I do indeed agree that the bosses are difficult, I see you mentioning minions.

Once again, I stand on my opinion that boss fights would have their difficulty severely reduced without minions. This is not to say anyone could beat them then, but it would not require nearly as much planning and strategy as it does with the Obsidian Bosses now. But I'll leave that for another post, so we can get back to the topic at hand.

Gunner's Mate
Aug 10, 2011
289
caleb10104 on Apr 3, 2020 wrote:
because... there's another stat that defends against magic? mojo storms was a basic example,

also uh, no? in nearly every obsidian fight, the boss is the hard part.

duck can one shot the entire team with a super
scratch can 2-4 turn your team if you don't have forts or absorbs
brass and his minions do 2-4k damage per hit
blood with repel 5 rip5 and blade 5 can essentially 1v1 any melee unit and get all his health back.

the bosses are the hard parts of their fights?

also, these are farming bosses, as in we want to be able to finish it as fast as we can for maximum value, in which cheese is highly effective.

Don't like Scratch? just don't use him. boom
Back to the topic at hand, as this little argument we had should end.

It seems as though we have reached a conclusion that the Witchdoctor class should be revamped.

For use in further posts, how do you all suggest Kingsisle should go about that?

Gunner's Mate
Aug 10, 2011
289
By the way, I know this is completely off topic, but when I was looking through old posts, I noticed that Ratbeard (The Developer), said the following quote. This was found in the post How KI jumped the gun with Old Scratch.

"Summons you cast yourself should be affected by Spell Power"

Can anyone confirm this? I have never tested. It would certainly make a summon spam deck much stronger.

For those that don't know, a summon spam deck is when a witchdoctor gets all of their companions in their party to be able to summon an ally. Then they equip themselves with several items also giving them summons (basically each individual piece of their attire and their weapon gives them a summon), then they fill their normal powers deck with all the summons they have. The result being 20 or 25 summons all quickly placed on a battle field.

My worry is that if this is affected by spell power, then using Mojo buffs from Scratch could make it that you summon super strong versions of normal summons, so now you have an army of 20 or 25 unstoppable allies.

Edit: Sorry the quote got messed up I fixed it

Gunner's Mate
Aug 10, 2011
289
Also if you read further into the article I mentioned, you should find that they are in agreement with what I have been stating, even though this took place 5 years earlier.

Im aware that Ratbeard states that item summons need willpower. Again, this must be tested but if true that doesn't change much. IF the superpower summons hunch I had is correct, then you can still use the class summons to get powerful people.

Gunner's Mate
Aug 10, 2011
289
caleb10104 on Apr 3, 2020 wrote:
because... there's another stat that defends against magic? mojo storms was a basic example,

also uh, no? in nearly every obsidian fight, the boss is the hard part.

duck can one shot the entire team with a super
scratch can 2-4 turn your team if you don't have forts or absorbs
brass and his minions do 2-4k damage per hit
blood with repel 5 rip5 and blade 5 can essentially 1v1 any melee unit and get all his health back.

the bosses are the hard parts of their fights?

also, these are farming bosses, as in we want to be able to finish it as fast as we can for maximum value, in which cheese is highly effective.

Don't like Scratch? just don't use him. boom
While of course it is hard to block any cheese in a game, it's very important that KI maintains the difficulty of their Obsidian Boss fights, as they advertised them to us as the toughest fights, on that it will take determination and grit.

Ensign
Mar 03, 2020
41
chiliman05 on Apr 7, 2020 wrote:
While I do indeed agree that the bosses are difficult, I see you mentioning minions.

Once again, I stand on my opinion that boss fights would have their difficulty severely reduced without minions. This is not to say anyone could beat them then, but it would not require nearly as much planning and strategy as it does with the Obsidian Bosses now. But I'll leave that for another post, so we can get back to the topic at hand.
that argument works for brass since he and his minions deal 2-4k per hit, doesn't really work for the others.

where did item summons even come from? there's 3 good item summons, and one of them is currently retired (trees) and the other two are ultra rare drops from the tower of moo manchu (cottas and scorpions, and cottas got nerfed.) chorus, drake, musket summon and swash summon are weak. (imo scorpions aren't really good without banner, another situational drop from the beast pack.) summons can be cheese, but it's irrelevant and a waste of time to delve into that. In part because to use these weapons, you're giving up heavy artillery, (bloods coat in case of cottas) or a lot of range (4 range with scorp staff vs 7 range with phules wand is a huge difference.) but that's not the point here.

in the case of summons, some are boosted by spellpower, and the others will, the weak witchdoctor summons are boosted by spellpower, now i'm not sure on scorps or cottas or trees. (might be something worth testing later) though i'm not sure if "unstoppable" is the correct use when the majority of them already aren't worth using.

Gunner's Mate
Aug 10, 2011
289
caleb10104 on Apr 7, 2020 wrote:
that argument works for brass since he and his minions deal 2-4k per hit, doesn't really work for the others.

where did item summons even come from? there's 3 good item summons, and one of them is currently retired (trees) and the other two are ultra rare drops from the tower of moo manchu (cottas and scorpions, and cottas got nerfed.) chorus, drake, musket summon and swash summon are weak. (imo scorpions aren't really good without banner, another situational drop from the beast pack.) summons can be cheese, but it's irrelevant and a waste of time to delve into that. In part because to use these weapons, you're giving up heavy artillery, (bloods coat in case of cottas) or a lot of range (4 range with scorp staff vs 7 range with phules wand is a huge difference.) but that's not the point here.

in the case of summons, some are boosted by spellpower, and the others will, the weak witchdoctor summons are boosted by spellpower, now i'm not sure on scorps or cottas or trees. (might be something worth testing later) though i'm not sure if "unstoppable" is the correct use when the majority of them already aren't worth using.
See the thing is though, spam summoners COMPLETELY base their decks and stats on summoning, so they will have the banner. Also the item from PVP that summons blossom cherries still exists, even though it is retired, so it does still count.

Summons are most definitely a waste of time without the proper character and supporting development. Unsupported, they will have very little health and damage. But for Witchdoctor's with high will, spellpower (a hunch supported by developer statement), and the proper gear and equipment, and companions to support their tactic (Old Scratch to give willpower, ranged people to do damage from behind the wall of summons) it is good.

Put it simply, we'll use PVP as an example. I've seen Witchdoctors in PVP destroy an enemy side because they have high will power and base their character off of having summons among other things, so now they summon very powerful allies. And one has to remember that they also have companions and themselves. Basically the strategy with spam summoning is to have the proper gear and stats to be able to summon very strong allies so they can act as guards that take the damage for you while chipping away at health, while your companions are also doing damage to them.

Also Caleb, according to Ratbeard's statement, he said that class summons (Drake, Chorus) are supported by Spellpower. This once again ties in to Scratch.

But I ask you, because of what this post has come to an agreement, how do you suggest KI revamps the Witchdoctor class? I'd like to know for use in a later post.

Gunner's Mate
Aug 10, 2011
289
caleb10104 on Apr 7, 2020 wrote:
that argument works for brass since he and his minions deal 2-4k per hit, doesn't really work for the others.

where did item summons even come from? there's 3 good item summons, and one of them is currently retired (trees) and the other two are ultra rare drops from the tower of moo manchu (cottas and scorpions, and cottas got nerfed.) chorus, drake, musket summon and swash summon are weak. (imo scorpions aren't really good without banner, another situational drop from the beast pack.) summons can be cheese, but it's irrelevant and a waste of time to delve into that. In part because to use these weapons, you're giving up heavy artillery, (bloods coat in case of cottas) or a lot of range (4 range with scorp staff vs 7 range with phules wand is a huge difference.) but that's not the point here.

in the case of summons, some are boosted by spellpower, and the others will, the weak witchdoctor summons are boosted by spellpower, now i'm not sure on scorps or cottas or trees. (might be something worth testing later) though i'm not sure if "unstoppable" is the correct use when the majority of them already aren't worth using.
The problem is, everyone can team on the boss if there were no minions, still making the boss fight much harder. There is absolutely no doubt a boss is the hardest part of a fight. But I'd say that you must admit a boss fight's difficulty is severely reduced without minions.

To use an example, the fight with Black Annie.

You have to reach her while the Dog Catcher's fight you, and due to the fact they are swashbuckler's, will most likely take out some of your companions. That and the fact that they have unlimited walking range, so it is very hard to reach the end of the map while leaving them alive.
Now, once you've finally dealt with them, if you wants to deal melee damage to Black Annie, you must break open the barricade around her (ranging her is very hard, because due to her quick draw and return fire, as well as double tap, she can usually kill a musketeer ranging her with a combo. This applies to Witchdoctors as she will open fire on them too if they engage her).

But she has several fox guards with her who will attempt to stop you as you come close, making the boss fight very difficult.

Now, let us imagine it without minions, shall we?

No dog catchers, so nothing immediately in the way of moving up the battlefield. Once your close to her, she will use Vixen Volley, usually once, and then scatter blast. Then just fight her as normal.

See how much easier the battle is without minions. Again, I do agree that bosses are the most important part, but minions are almost just as important.

Ensign
Mar 03, 2020
41
chiliman05 on Apr 8, 2020 wrote:
See the thing is though, spam summoners COMPLETELY base their decks and stats on summoning, so they will have the banner. Also the item from PVP that summons blossom cherries still exists, even though it is retired, so it does still count.

Summons are most definitely a waste of time without the proper character and supporting development. Unsupported, they will have very little health and damage. But for Witchdoctor's with high will, spellpower (a hunch supported by developer statement), and the proper gear and equipment, and companions to support their tactic (Old Scratch to give willpower, ranged people to do damage from behind the wall of summons) it is good.

Put it simply, we'll use PVP as an example. I've seen Witchdoctors in PVP destroy an enemy side because they have high will power and base their character off of having summons among other things, so now they summon very powerful allies. And one has to remember that they also have companions and themselves. Basically the strategy with spam summoning is to have the proper gear and stats to be able to summon very strong allies so they can act as guards that take the damage for you while chipping away at health, while your companions are also doing damage to them.

Also Caleb, according to Ratbeard's statement, he said that class summons (Drake, Chorus) are supported by Spellpower. This once again ties in to Scratch.

But I ask you, because of what this post has come to an agreement, how do you suggest KI revamps the Witchdoctor class? I'd like to know for use in a later post.
the class summons are awful even with scratch.
all but one are them are 1 unit summons and the other is a 1x5 summon with tide1 and veng1

those summons were never staple in a summoning kit, the stables were trees cottas and scorpions.

you can't even get trees anymore, they're retired, cottas were nerfed, and if i can remember correctly without banner scorpions aren't really that great.

witchdoctor is f-tier in pvp, a lucky win won't really change that, but in talks of revamping the witch class (which sadly will never see fruition due to lack of support of this game.)

- either straight up removal of witch hunter of a revert of what it was before, the buff to witch hunter completely killed witchdoctors in pvp, no other class has a way of cutting their attack power in half due to a single hit.
- base accuracy increased, dodge can stay the same but their base accuracy is so bad, that only 3 witchdoctor comps are useable in pve, 1 in pvp.
- giving mojo rising access to all witchdoctor comps, not just the troggy and necromancer.
- a promotable guaranteed critical hit for all witchdoctor comps.
- more powers per character
- an upgrade to widows touch, (i don't like that emmett got the widows touch buff)
- some sort of defensive capability, as of marlybone and on, the moment a buccaneer touches a witchdoctor, they're essentially dead.

if they were to buff them, i could see removing the 100% buff but keeping the other 2 in play, i dont think the 50 and 25% buff are too game breaking, or even see how 75% would do

Gunner's Mate
Aug 10, 2011
289
caleb10104 on Apr 9, 2020 wrote:
the class summons are awful even with scratch.
all but one are them are 1 unit summons and the other is a 1x5 summon with tide1 and veng1

those summons were never staple in a summoning kit, the stables were trees cottas and scorpions.

you can't even get trees anymore, they're retired, cottas were nerfed, and if i can remember correctly without banner scorpions aren't really that great.

witchdoctor is f-tier in pvp, a lucky win won't really change that, but in talks of revamping the witch class (which sadly will never see fruition due to lack of support of this game.)

- either straight up removal of witch hunter of a revert of what it was before, the buff to witch hunter completely killed witchdoctors in pvp, no other class has a way of cutting their attack power in half due to a single hit.
- base accuracy increased, dodge can stay the same but their base accuracy is so bad, that only 3 witchdoctor comps are useable in pve, 1 in pvp.
- giving mojo rising access to all witchdoctor comps, not just the troggy and necromancer.
- a promotable guaranteed critical hit for all witchdoctor comps.
- more powers per character
- an upgrade to widows touch, (i don't like that emmett got the widows touch buff)
- some sort of defensive capability, as of marlybone and on, the moment a buccaneer touches a witchdoctor, they're essentially dead.

if they were to buff them, i could see removing the 100% buff but keeping the other 2 in play, i dont think the 50 and 25% buff are too game breaking, or even see how 75% would do
Again, as I said, spam summoners base their entire deck and gear on summoning.

So they will have the banner. Also the tree still exists, it's not like they took it away from people who already had it. Anyone who had the trees at any point still has them. The cottas were nerfed though.

Well the problem is, much like musketeers, witchdoctors are mainly support. They can't fight off several people (usually). They are F-tier by themselves, but not with others.

I think your suggestions for revamping the witchdoctor class is good, I agree with all of the suggestions. Including the buff one, I think the buffs should stay to some degree, but not the 100% one.

Ensign
Mar 03, 2020
41
chiliman05 on Apr 10, 2020 wrote:
Again, as I said, spam summoners base their entire deck and gear on summoning.

So they will have the banner. Also the tree still exists, it's not like they took it away from people who already had it. Anyone who had the trees at any point still has them. The cottas were nerfed though.

Well the problem is, much like musketeers, witchdoctors are mainly support. They can't fight off several people (usually). They are F-tier by themselves, but not with others.

I think your suggestions for revamping the witchdoctor class is good, I agree with all of the suggestions. Including the buff one, I think the buffs should stay to some degree, but not the 100% one.
summons just make a normal fight last longer in general, it's just more effective to bring 3 or 4 mojo storms assuming you dont have blood flames and just aoe spam the enemy to death (clearly this wont work in pvp but this isn't spar chamber) so i find summons to be irrelevant in farming events.

Gunner's Mate
Aug 10, 2011
289
caleb10104 on Apr 14, 2020 wrote:
summons just make a normal fight last longer in general, it's just more effective to bring 3 or 4 mojo storms assuming you dont have blood flames and just aoe spam the enemy to death (clearly this wont work in pvp but this isn't spar chamber) so i find summons to be irrelevant in farming events.
These summons will be more powerful if the mojo boost/ will power boost from Ratbeard is right

I don't have a max level Witchdoctor with Shaman Old Scratch so I can't immediately test that.

If it is true and the mojo buffs are proving to be as powerful as they are for everything else, we could be dealing with broken summons. What I mean by this is summons that have the damage and health of a normal player/NPC.

2