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A Frank Discussion on 'Hide'

AuthorMessage
Pirate Overlord
Mar 16, 2012
10609
I won't disguise the fact that I'm sick and tired of reading posts demanding that 'Hide' should be nerfed or that it should be removed by AoEs. Posters claim that this power makes Swashbucklers 'OP',; and I would concede that they had a point, if Swashbucklers were the only ones with 'Hide'. The truth is we're not the only class with the power to hide.
Anyone can spend a training point and gain Walk in Shadows ( 2x weapon damage for 3 rounds ) ends when you attack. There is a variety of gear that grants Walk in Darkness ( 2x weapon damage for 5 rounds ) ends when you attack. There are a few companions with the ability to hide, there are even pets with this power. Why, for all I know, there may even be a pet that grants WIS or WID!
'Hide' is useful for both offensive and defensive situations, having it removed with an AoE was never intended by KI and I'm glad the situation has been rectified.
There are ways of removing "Hide', but it requires timing, skill and a bit of luck; it also requires a bit of risk on the part of the attacker. I'm talking about the talents: Flanking, Repel Boarders, Cheap Shot and Over Watch. Use these to 'pop' an attacker out of 'hide'. Yes, they will attack you ( or your companion ) and if the attack goes through there will be damage, BUT it won't be the same amount of damage that an epic would do! So, you have two choices: stand there and take an epic to the face or make them lose their 'hide' on your terms.
"Hide' doesn't need to be removed by a cheap and easy method, and it certainly doesn't need nerfing. That is all I have to say on this subject.

Admiral
Jul 07, 2013
1124
Actually I'm tired of reading posts about nerfing any powers or enemies at all no matter what the job class. Also about making certain dungeons shorter. Also I'm tired of everything involving powers revolving around its use for pvp. Is it only offensive now because its your main character that's under fire?

Virtuous Dante Ramsey

Admiral
Nov 23, 2011
1395
Me too. In general, I find it mildly annoying when people want to change how powers/abilities work for the entire game because of some perceived advantage/weakness in PVP. That's the tail wagging the dog.

-Indigo

Bosun
Dec 16, 2012
331
anecorbie on Apr 2, 2015 wrote:
I won't disguise the fact that I'm sick and tired of reading posts demanding that 'Hide' should be nerfed or that it should be removed by AoEs. Posters claim that this power makes Swashbucklers 'OP',; and I would concede that they had a point, if Swashbucklers were the only ones with 'Hide'. The truth is we're not the only class with the power to hide.
Anyone can spend a training point and gain Walk in Shadows ( 2x weapon damage for 3 rounds ) ends when you attack. There is a variety of gear that grants Walk in Darkness ( 2x weapon damage for 5 rounds ) ends when you attack. There are a few companions with the ability to hide, there are even pets with this power. Why, for all I know, there may even be a pet that grants WIS or WID!
'Hide' is useful for both offensive and defensive situations, having it removed with an AoE was never intended by KI and I'm glad the situation has been rectified.
There are ways of removing "Hide', but it requires timing, skill and a bit of luck; it also requires a bit of risk on the part of the attacker. I'm talking about the talents: Flanking, Repel Boarders, Cheap Shot and Over Watch. Use these to 'pop' an attacker out of 'hide'. Yes, they will attack you ( or your companion ) and if the attack goes through there will be damage, BUT it won't be the same amount of damage that an epic would do! So, you have two choices: stand there and take an epic to the face or make them lose their 'hide' on your terms.
"Hide' doesn't need to be removed by a cheap and easy method, and it certainly doesn't need nerfing. That is all I have to say on this subject.
I just wanted to point this out, Witch doctors are at a bit of a disadvantage when it comes to the "everyone gets hide and they have the same effect, double weapon power" thing. Witchdoctors powerful attacks are all based on Mojo, not weapon damage, meaning that the boost that you get from the hide is not really that helpful (the hide is nice though. Besides that, there is no problems I have with the Walk in Shadows and Walk in Darkness powers. Black fog though, I wish that one still worked like before the update, at least for the companions that are non-swashbucklers.

Pirate Overlord
Mar 16, 2012
10609
DuranteRamses87 on Apr 3, 2015 wrote:
Actually I'm tired of reading posts about nerfing any powers or enemies at all no matter what the job class. Also about making certain dungeons shorter. Also I'm tired of everything involving powers revolving around its use for pvp. Is it only offensive now because its your main character that's under fire?

Virtuous Dante Ramsey
Well, of course, Dante. Isn't that human nature? We think of how certain situations impact us, before we think how it impacts others.

Commodore
Feb 02, 2013
838
It needs a nerf, i wont say why because ive said so on a zillion other threads

Gunner's Mate
Feb 05, 2015
230
I totally agree with you! Every class is evenly matched and hides should not be nerfed. My buck has a hide and any class can train it! Decides hide was never a problem for me.

Pirate Overlord
Mar 16, 2012
10609
The only reason to nerf a power is if it unbalances a class against pve story line ( or in pvp ). As I've pointed out any class may take advantage of the 2 x weapon boost, yes, even witchdoctors if they have a combo weapon equipped; or, as I've seen some doing, using a non-class weapon.

Bosun
Dec 16, 2012
331
anecorbie on Apr 4, 2015 wrote:
The only reason to nerf a power is if it unbalances a class against pve story line ( or in pvp ). As I've pointed out any class may take advantage of the 2 x weapon boost, yes, even witchdoctors if they have a combo weapon equipped; or, as I've seen some doing, using a non-class weapon.
I get what you are saying, and frankly I don't see any reason to change Walk in Shadows/Darkness, I was just pointing out that the hide is *less* useful for Witchdoctors. My problem with combo weapons is that I cannot for the life of me find a staffy/[other type] that in anyway increases my Accuracy, my Range, or grants anything at all. Privateers, Bucs, and Swashbucklers can get weapons that grant things like relentless, bladestorm, hold the line and other epics on multitype weapons, mainly because slashy/stabby and slashy/smashy are such common combinations for powerful weapons. With witchdoctors on the other hand, can you name 1 unauctionable Staffy/(something) weapon? I would love to use a gun and wand, but I would only do it if there was some bonus from it, like a range boost, (I don't want to have to go from a range of 7 to a range or 4) and it would definitely need to have some sort of accuracy boost, as witchdoctors have horrid accuracy. I understand that what I could do is completely change my set and my practice points, which is something I would rather not do.

This was longer then I thought it would be, anyway, I just wanted to say that while all classes can take advantage of it, it is harder for witchdoctors to do so.

Dread Pirate
Jun 17, 2013
2743
anecorbie on Apr 2, 2015 wrote:
I won't disguise the fact that I'm sick and tired of reading posts demanding that 'Hide' should be nerfed or that it should be removed by AoEs. Posters claim that this power makes Swashbucklers 'OP',; and I would concede that they had a point, if Swashbucklers were the only ones with 'Hide'. The truth is we're not the only class with the power to hide.
Anyone can spend a training point and gain Walk in Shadows ( 2x weapon damage for 3 rounds ) ends when you attack. There is a variety of gear that grants Walk in Darkness ( 2x weapon damage for 5 rounds ) ends when you attack. There are a few companions with the ability to hide, there are even pets with this power. Why, for all I know, there may even be a pet that grants WIS or WID!
'Hide' is useful for both offensive and defensive situations, having it removed with an AoE was never intended by KI and I'm glad the situation has been rectified.
There are ways of removing "Hide', but it requires timing, skill and a bit of luck; it also requires a bit of risk on the part of the attacker. I'm talking about the talents: Flanking, Repel Boarders, Cheap Shot and Over Watch. Use these to 'pop' an attacker out of 'hide'. Yes, they will attack you ( or your companion ) and if the attack goes through there will be damage, BUT it won't be the same amount of damage that an epic would do! So, you have two choices: stand there and take an epic to the face or make them lose their 'hide' on your terms.
"Hide' doesn't need to be removed by a cheap and easy method, and it certainly doesn't need nerfing. That is all I have to say on this subject.
Hi Esperanza! Great points about the "Heckle & Hide" discussion & I agree about each class being able to take advantage of Hidden & also to having ways to counter it.

The only thing I would like to add is that frankly, & generally speaking, I don't view an AoE attack removing Hidden combatants as cheap & easy...well, it kinda is. But I see it more as a cheap & easy strategic tactic-- not so much a dirty exploit. Although with how it was used in P101 combat, I can understand those feelings as well.

If you think about it, in real-life battle, with pesky critters & other gaming situations, how do you reveal a hidden foe/pest? You use an AoE "attack" on the surrounding area hoping to get lucky & "uncover" the hidden entity. If a vermin is hiding in some thick shrubbery or under a house, you target & "attack" the area to reveal it's whereabouts (or call Ace Ventura). In battle, if enemies are hidden, you may attack with AoE's & then attack the exposed target. Sure it may seem cheap & easy, but it is an actual strategic tactic used for all types of situations. I play other games in which an enemy is hidden from my player. Instead of possibly exposing myself to extreme danger, I use some sort of AoE to attempt to pinpoint the enemy location.

P101 combat may be different from these scenarios but the same principal could still be employed & applied as in-battle, combat tactics- AoE to reveal hidden opponent. Sure it may not be what was intended, but in all applications it is a legitimate battle tactic, albeit perhaps with a side of "cheap & easy". If it were properly implemented into P101 combat, it would make sense to be able to reveal a hidden opponent with an AoE.

I agree that there are many other ways to use Talents & other strategies to counter Hidden & 100% agree that it doesn't need a nerf. But I am OK if AoE's were allowed, in some fashion, to be a counter because it does make perfect sense in terms of strategy & combat tactics-- again if performed legitimately.

Pirate Overlord
Mar 16, 2012
10609
ValkoorTheVictorio... on Apr 14, 2015 wrote:
Hi Esperanza! Great points about the "Heckle & Hide" discussion & I agree about each class being able to take advantage of Hidden & also to having ways to counter it.

The only thing I would like to add is that frankly, & generally speaking, I don't view an AoE attack removing Hidden combatants as cheap & easy...well, it kinda is. But I see it more as a cheap & easy strategic tactic-- not so much a dirty exploit. Although with how it was used in P101 combat, I can understand those feelings as well.

If you think about it, in real-life battle, with pesky critters & other gaming situations, how do you reveal a hidden foe/pest? You use an AoE "attack" on the surrounding area hoping to get lucky & "uncover" the hidden entity. If a vermin is hiding in some thick shrubbery or under a house, you target & "attack" the area to reveal it's whereabouts (or call Ace Ventura). In battle, if enemies are hidden, you may attack with AoE's & then attack the exposed target. Sure it may seem cheap & easy, but it is an actual strategic tactic used for all types of situations. I play other games in which an enemy is hidden from my player. Instead of possibly exposing myself to extreme danger, I use some sort of AoE to attempt to pinpoint the enemy location.

P101 combat may be different from these scenarios but the same principal could still be employed & applied as in-battle, combat tactics- AoE to reveal hidden opponent. Sure it may not be what was intended, but in all applications it is a legitimate battle tactic, albeit perhaps with a side of "cheap & easy". If it were properly implemented into P101 combat, it would make sense to be able to reveal a hidden opponent with an AoE.

I agree that there are many other ways to use Talents & other strategies to counter Hidden & 100% agree that it doesn't need a nerf. But I am OK if AoE's were allowed, in some fashion, to be a counter because it does make perfect sense in terms of strategy & combat tactics-- again if performed legitimately.
The major issue I have with the AoE question was that by causing damage, it removed 'hide': as anyone can see by looking at the power card itself it does not say ( and never did say ) removed when suffers damage. Before the improvements went through, my 'hides' were in the back of my powers; simply put, using them was a waste of time when anything in pve could remove them.
In the current pvp situation, you can still use an AoE and it will cause the same damage it did before, the only difference is I'm not automatically exposed.
Let me put it another way: what if using an AoE on you stripped away any damage blocking power you just used? Wouldn't you then, say that was a cheap and easy ( if not dirty ) tactic?
I've already demonstrated that using talent attacks to your advantage will 'pop' an attacker out of 'hide'. Why should one set of circumstances ( pvp ) be used to control powers used in pve? The only ones complaining about this are the ardent pvp-ers, why should my powers be affected because they have a hard time dealing with it? Going back to AoE damage to remove hide isn't an option anymore.

Dread Pirate
Jun 17, 2013
2743
anecorbie on Apr 14, 2015 wrote:
The major issue I have with the AoE question was that by causing damage, it removed 'hide': as anyone can see by looking at the power card itself it does not say ( and never did say ) removed when suffers damage. Before the improvements went through, my 'hides' were in the back of my powers; simply put, using them was a waste of time when anything in pve could remove them.
In the current pvp situation, you can still use an AoE and it will cause the same damage it did before, the only difference is I'm not automatically exposed.
Let me put it another way: what if using an AoE on you stripped away any damage blocking power you just used? Wouldn't you then, say that was a cheap and easy ( if not dirty ) tactic?
I've already demonstrated that using talent attacks to your advantage will 'pop' an attacker out of 'hide'. Why should one set of circumstances ( pvp ) be used to control powers used in pve? The only ones complaining about this are the ardent pvp-ers, why should my powers be affected because they have a hard time dealing with it? Going back to AoE damage to remove hide isn't an option anymore.
Oh I understand your issues with the in-game applications/exploits of how AoE attacks on hidden combatants was 'broken'-- even in PvE. Although I always used a Hide during PvE battle (even before improvements) because the PvE AI never seemed to take advantage of the AoE exploit or know that it existed. Putting it another way, I can't recall a single time when a PvE enemy actually used an AoE attack & successfully damaged me & took me out of my Hide.

Perhaps it's because I was always out of range when I went hidden &/or because I could pretty much traverse the entire battle board to attack...whilst still hidden. But other classes are much different than a SB w/ hidden. A SB can hide it's entire crew, while at best, other classes can hide themselves & 1 other companion-- if they are fortunate to be able to get Keisuke with Crowns. So I can see where 1 or more crew members for a SB being knocked out of a 'team hide', due to an AoE causing damage, could occur much more often & prove quite frustrating. But for me personally, I- not once, ever had a PvE enemy remove hidden because of an AoE doing damage...and I used a Hide in nearly every single PvE battle.

And I surely wasn't arguing as to whether AoE causing damage while hidden (& thus losing a hide, & forfeiting your 2x damage) was 'broken' in terms of the game. My points were simply that in real world, & even virtual gaming, logical/practical sense-- it does seem fitting for the scenario to play out that way. I mean if something is hidden & gets hurt (even from an AoE attack), chances are that hidden entity (which has been 'revealed' and knocked out of hiding from an AoE), is not going to do the same damage/block the same damage (or be as potent-- offensively or defensively) as it would if it stayed hidden.

But real world & video games are not one in the same, so the combat system should accommodate all classes without creating extreme advantages/disadvantages for any 1 class-- in the scope of PvE first & foremost.

Developer
I just stopped by to see if Frank had weighed in yet.

Admiral
Nov 23, 2011
1395
"I just stopped by to see if Frank had weighed in yet."

I won't tell you how long it was before I got that...

Pirate Overlord
Mar 16, 2012
10609
ValkoorTheVictorio... on Apr 15, 2015 wrote:
Oh I understand your issues with the in-game applications/exploits of how AoE attacks on hidden combatants was 'broken'-- even in PvE. Although I always used a Hide during PvE battle (even before improvements) because the PvE AI never seemed to take advantage of the AoE exploit or know that it existed. Putting it another way, I can't recall a single time when a PvE enemy actually used an AoE attack & successfully damaged me & took me out of my Hide.

Perhaps it's because I was always out of range when I went hidden &/or because I could pretty much traverse the entire battle board to attack...whilst still hidden. But other classes are much different than a SB w/ hidden. A SB can hide it's entire crew, while at best, other classes can hide themselves & 1 other companion-- if they are fortunate to be able to get Keisuke with Crowns. So I can see where 1 or more crew members for a SB being knocked out of a 'team hide', due to an AoE causing damage, could occur much more often & prove quite frustrating. But for me personally, I- not once, ever had a PvE enemy remove hidden because of an AoE doing damage...and I used a Hide in nearly every single PvE battle.

And I surely wasn't arguing as to whether AoE causing damage while hidden (& thus losing a hide, & forfeiting your 2x damage) was 'broken' in terms of the game. My points were simply that in real world, & even virtual gaming, logical/practical sense-- it does seem fitting for the scenario to play out that way. I mean if something is hidden & gets hurt (even from an AoE attack), chances are that hidden entity (which has been 'revealed' and knocked out of hiding from an AoE), is not going to do the same damage/block the same damage (or be as potent-- offensively or defensively) as it would if it stayed hidden.

But real world & video games are not one in the same, so the combat system should accommodate all classes without creating extreme advantages/disadvantages for any 1 class-- in the scope of PvE first & foremost.
In a logical world scenario, my 'hide' would be real. I would be invisible to all. In that case an AoE attack would make sense. If I could have a true 'hide' and then in the same round move from my spot, then I would have no problems with you playing "Try to find the SB".
But this is not the situation in this game, I'm visible, anyone can use an AoE to hurt me, why give up an advantage, "because it makes sense in the real world"?
And you don't remember that any damage a character took wiped out the 'hide'. In MB: burning refuse, Dragoon bombs ( pointing out that at the level I was in MB, I didn't have Black Fog; it's a level 65 power.) anything that caused damage exposed me.
The 'Hide' series is the SB version of a buff, witchdoctors have the juju series, Buccaneers have Leviathan's, Tritons and Kraken's ( meant to make you less apt to be damaged ) Musketeers have skyspirit & focus fire, do I even need to mention all the buffs given to privateers? Why should this power be singled out as 'bad', OP, let's nerf it?

Pirate Overlord
Mar 16, 2012
10609
Ratbeard on Apr 15, 2015 wrote:
I just stopped by to see if Frank had weighed in yet.
Nope, and neither has Earnest had anything to say.

Pirate Overlord
Mar 10, 2009
6204
Ratbeard on Apr 15, 2015 wrote:
I just stopped by to see if Frank had weighed in yet.
*Can't stop laughing* Well played once again Ratbeard.

Dread Pirate
Jun 17, 2013
2743
Ratbeard on Apr 15, 2015 wrote:
I just stopped by to see if Frank had weighed in yet.
He's aliiive.....he's ALIIIIIVE....HE'S A-L-I-I-I-I-I-VE!!! Oops, hadn't seen your presence on the boards in a while (just got back myself)....must have been brought back by good ol' Dr. 'Frank'enstien! (yeah, sorry-- couldn't resist)

Seriously, nice to see a post from you again RB and not too mention that 'cheesy' humor we've all come to enjoy!

Esperanza 'stole' my E(a)rnest joke so I won't be using that one today......"know what I mean"

Dread Pirate
Jun 17, 2013
2743
anecorbie on Apr 15, 2015 wrote:
In a logical world scenario, my 'hide' would be real. I would be invisible to all. In that case an AoE attack would make sense. If I could have a true 'hide' and then in the same round move from my spot, then I would have no problems with you playing "Try to find the SB".
But this is not the situation in this game, I'm visible, anyone can use an AoE to hurt me, why give up an advantage, "because it makes sense in the real world"?
And you don't remember that any damage a character took wiped out the 'hide'. In MB: burning refuse, Dragoon bombs ( pointing out that at the level I was in MB, I didn't have Black Fog; it's a level 65 power.) anything that caused damage exposed me.
The 'Hide' series is the SB version of a buff, witchdoctors have the juju series, Buccaneers have Leviathan's, Tritons and Kraken's ( meant to make you less apt to be damaged ) Musketeers have skyspirit & focus fire, do I even need to mention all the buffs given to privateers? Why should this power be singled out as 'bad', OP, let's nerf it?
I'm not really trying to argue with you Esperanza or raise hairs-- just trying to look at it from an all encompassing, "what does this mean" & neutral perspective. I don't PvP & I'm not a SB, so my view point is merely a "take no sides", look at it logically standpoint.

I don't view Hidden as a 'bad' or 'OP' or 'need to nerf' power-- just providing some added perspectives, being that this is a 'Frank' discussion that we were 'invited' to partake in...& as ol' Whiskers so humorously noted, 'Frank' hasn't shown up just yet.

And I understand where you're coming from about the SB 'Hide' series being a version of other classes buffs. But, most of the other classes don't have that 1 power that can be used in the very 1st turn of battle that affects the entire crew & doubles their damage & is supposed to make them non-targetable (minus talents). Sure a Bucc. (using Levi) can 1/2 damage taken in the 1st turn (not magical)...but only for 1 unit, that being the pirate. Even their so-called 'claim to fame', most powerful power, Reckless Frenzy (their level 65 power), has a penalty attached to it-- whereas Black Fog doesn't. Also, a team hide is guaranteed to work. I've seen Reckless Frenzy only last 1-2 turns (seen 20 as well) even with my Bucc's accuracy at an eye-popping level. I've seen a WD's Chain Lightning 'forget' to chain, as well. Black Fog is a Power that works, each & every time, with no designed penalty.

I don't think that hidden in general is a problem at all, but I can see where some PvP'ers may have an issue with a team hide & I can likewise see where & why you would be upset & frustrated at players wanting to take away what makes a SB a mighty SWASHBUCKLER! I would be frustrated too & I 'frankly' & 'earnestly' don't get the whole 'OP'/complaining debacle...at all. I say "just play, have fun & carry on!"

But I see no harm in friendly discussions offered up from both sides of the fence, that may one day lead to a gallant compromise in regards to the topic.

Dread Pirate
Jun 17, 2013
2743
Ratbeard on Apr 15, 2015 wrote:
I just stopped by to see if Frank had weighed in yet.
Hey RB, while we've got you here, I wanted to get your thoughts/opinions on something that pertains to this topic.

Would anything similar to this- work or be possible with respect to Hide/AoE? Taking both PvP & PvE into account.

I was thinking, 'what if there was a unique AoE power' that had the chance of removing, up to multiple hidden units. It could be a power attached to only 1 piece of gear. By attaching to Ultra Rare gear, it would be obtainable by diehard PvP'ers, could provide a viable & alternative counter to 'team hides', it wouldn't affect the SB class in PvE & could still be something that could be equipped/unequipped in PvP tournaments-- so equpping/unequipping could be agreed upon casually and in tournament rules as well. Also, if future PvE enemies had access to team hides (something I would love to see), it would be an option for PvE'ers to seek out as well. But it wouldn't cause any sort of 'rift' between play types or strip the SB class of any advantages, during PvE.

So here's what I was thinking & this is all brain storming & surely would need lots of programming expertise and 'magic' to 'work'.

Shroud of Unveiling- piece of gear obtained from farming tough boss/long dungeon- current. Or maybe from smuggler's arena drop upon completion? Or purchased with insane amount of Scrip from BM), with 3 tiers of a 'single type' of AoE power (either 3x3 or X shaped):

Shadowlift- 50% base chance to reveal 1 random, hidden target
Shadowjack- 35% base chance to reveal 2 random, hidden targets
Shadowsweep- 20% base chance to reveal 3 random, hidden targets (from the targeted area)
(the AoE would only damage if units not revealed, without removing hide from them)

All successful 'reveals' would reveal hidden targets & clear the 2x damage, but the attacker would receive a % penalty to Armor/Dodge/Resist & Primary class attribute (or some other kind of penalty). This way the player would have to weigh options before using it.

(out of characters....)

Pirate Overlord
Mar 16, 2012
10609
ValkoorTheVictorio... on Apr 16, 2015 wrote:
Hey RB, while we've got you here, I wanted to get your thoughts/opinions on something that pertains to this topic.

Would anything similar to this- work or be possible with respect to Hide/AoE? Taking both PvP & PvE into account.

I was thinking, 'what if there was a unique AoE power' that had the chance of removing, up to multiple hidden units. It could be a power attached to only 1 piece of gear. By attaching to Ultra Rare gear, it would be obtainable by diehard PvP'ers, could provide a viable & alternative counter to 'team hides', it wouldn't affect the SB class in PvE & could still be something that could be equipped/unequipped in PvP tournaments-- so equpping/unequipping could be agreed upon casually and in tournament rules as well. Also, if future PvE enemies had access to team hides (something I would love to see), it would be an option for PvE'ers to seek out as well. But it wouldn't cause any sort of 'rift' between play types or strip the SB class of any advantages, during PvE.

So here's what I was thinking & this is all brain storming & surely would need lots of programming expertise and 'magic' to 'work'.

Shroud of Unveiling- piece of gear obtained from farming tough boss/long dungeon- current. Or maybe from smuggler's arena drop upon completion? Or purchased with insane amount of Scrip from BM), with 3 tiers of a 'single type' of AoE power (either 3x3 or X shaped):

Shadowlift- 50% base chance to reveal 1 random, hidden target
Shadowjack- 35% base chance to reveal 2 random, hidden targets
Shadowsweep- 20% base chance to reveal 3 random, hidden targets (from the targeted area)
(the AoE would only damage if units not revealed, without removing hide from them)

All successful 'reveals' would reveal hidden targets & clear the 2x damage, but the attacker would receive a % penalty to Armor/Dodge/Resist & Primary class attribute (or some other kind of penalty). This way the player would have to weigh options before using it.

(out of characters....)
I frankly hate this idea. Are there any powers that can erase another class's buffs? Can I have something to delete Leviathan or Valor's Armor? How about Greater Juju? Unless you want to address all class's buffs, I earnestly ask you to leave mine alone!

Pirate Overlord
Mar 16, 2012
10609
ValkoorTheVictorio... on Apr 16, 2015 wrote:
Hey RB, while we've got you here, I wanted to get your thoughts/opinions on something that pertains to this topic.

Would anything similar to this- work or be possible with respect to Hide/AoE? Taking both PvP & PvE into account.

I was thinking, 'what if there was a unique AoE power' that had the chance of removing, up to multiple hidden units. It could be a power attached to only 1 piece of gear. By attaching to Ultra Rare gear, it would be obtainable by diehard PvP'ers, could provide a viable & alternative counter to 'team hides', it wouldn't affect the SB class in PvE & could still be something that could be equipped/unequipped in PvP tournaments-- so equpping/unequipping could be agreed upon casually and in tournament rules as well. Also, if future PvE enemies had access to team hides (something I would love to see), it would be an option for PvE'ers to seek out as well. But it wouldn't cause any sort of 'rift' between play types or strip the SB class of any advantages, during PvE.

So here's what I was thinking & this is all brain storming & surely would need lots of programming expertise and 'magic' to 'work'.

Shroud of Unveiling- piece of gear obtained from farming tough boss/long dungeon- current. Or maybe from smuggler's arena drop upon completion? Or purchased with insane amount of Scrip from BM), with 3 tiers of a 'single type' of AoE power (either 3x3 or X shaped):

Shadowlift- 50% base chance to reveal 1 random, hidden target
Shadowjack- 35% base chance to reveal 2 random, hidden targets
Shadowsweep- 20% base chance to reveal 3 random, hidden targets (from the targeted area)
(the AoE would only damage if units not revealed, without removing hide from them)

All successful 'reveals' would reveal hidden targets & clear the 2x damage, but the attacker would receive a % penalty to Armor/Dodge/Resist & Primary class attribute (or some other kind of penalty). This way the player would have to weigh options before using it.

(out of characters....)
At least you are making an effort to find a workable solution, all I've ever heard from the pvp-ers is "nerf 'hide" without a single helpful suggestion.
BTW Black Fog isn't a team hide, it's a group hide; you have to be standing next to me to take advantage of it. a team hide would hide the entire team.

Bosun
Dec 16, 2012
331
anecorbie on Apr 15, 2015 wrote:
In a logical world scenario, my 'hide' would be real. I would be invisible to all. In that case an AoE attack would make sense. If I could have a true 'hide' and then in the same round move from my spot, then I would have no problems with you playing "Try to find the SB".
But this is not the situation in this game, I'm visible, anyone can use an AoE to hurt me, why give up an advantage, "because it makes sense in the real world"?
And you don't remember that any damage a character took wiped out the 'hide'. In MB: burning refuse, Dragoon bombs ( pointing out that at the level I was in MB, I didn't have Black Fog; it's a level 65 power.) anything that caused damage exposed me.
The 'Hide' series is the SB version of a buff, witchdoctors have the juju series, Buccaneers have Leviathan's, Tritons and Kraken's ( meant to make you less apt to be damaged ) Musketeers have skyspirit & focus fire, do I even need to mention all the buffs given to privateers? Why should this power be singled out as 'bad', OP, let's nerf it?
Just throwing out a couple of random Ideas:

The whole Idea of hitting someone with an AoE attack is that you now know that they are there, not necessarily there exact position, but that they are in a certain range. Maybe when hit with an AoE you loose the 2x Weapon attack (whether it goes away or just downgrades to 1.5 I don't know) because you loose that element of surprise. Now what fires and whatnot do I don't know.

For Black Fog Only:
Non Swashbuckler companions have fog the way it was before. This kind of makes sense, as lets be honest, swashbucklers would probably be the only ones to learn how to hide in battling situations. Can you see Hawkules just taking it quietly when hit with a mojo blast?

Have it so that only passive board damage will reveal you. This also kinda makes sense as you are probably going to reveal your location if, you know, you catch on fire or blow something up.

Black Fog will result in the next hit being a super hit, as opposed to 2x damage, so you cannot stack guaranteed critical hits with companions who cannot normally hide. This may also help witchdoctors, as mojo attacks will now be effected.

Anyway these are just ideas, feel free to shoot them down or build on them.

Admiral
Jul 07, 2013
1124
Everybody would want to have that piece of gear and arguments over its use would be absolutely vicious and then Frank would have to chime in. Also in order to equip the gear you have to unequip something else which may provide other advantages. It would be a significant amount of trade off to counter the ability and for what? Only against one class? Yet the powers for it that you suggest Valkoor are interesting. I am loathe to take away the bread and butter of any class yet my own no longer has any. You see with the new companions, pet abilities, and doubloons everybody has the ability to raise their stats and heal without any help from a privateer. I suggest the abilities you suggest be given to Privateers so that we may once again be useful.

Virtuous Dante Ramsey

Pirate Overlord
Mar 16, 2012
10609
I have done some careful analysis on the damage done under 'hide'; boy howdy, do I hate to do math in the morning!
Two points that the pvp crowd are making is that: 1. Hide makes SBs ( or anyone ) un-target-able, we know that this is false, AoEs can still hit us. & 2. Damage under Hide is OP.
I'm addressing point #2 :
Esperanza Devereaux when equipped with Nefarious Knives
base weapon damage is 225 add to that trained talents, Born Warrior and equipment enhancements and the total is 297.
297 x 2 = 594 then we add the damage from an epic, say Assassin's Strike 805 damage + 221 bleeding for 2 rounds. So we get
594 + 805 = 1599 damage + 221 in the two following rounds makes the grand total of:2,041! ( and this isn't counting any buffs applied by doubloons or a privateer. )
THIS IS WHAT MAKES A SB EFFECTIVE IN PVE COMBAT!!!!!!
Now let's look at my armor and health.
Armor - 11* ( obviously I'm depending on my dodge to defend me ) Health - 2,713
Take away my hide and I'm very squishy.
PVP should NOT control PVE combat!
NOTE: I'm not using the Nefarious Knives any more for 2 reasons 1. it grants Flanking talent and 2. it gives no armor. I'm using Boarding Knives + 14 armor and no flank.* with them my armor is an ok 25.
If you want to fight a hidden opponent: use AoEs, bombs, traps, and flames; do as much damage as you can. Use a "hide' yourself, what works for me also works for you.
Precipitate a talent attack; flanking, repel boarders, cheap shot, over watch.